Author Topic: RCE discussion (Read 4416 times)

Event "Janе" Horizon · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2014, 07:58:15 pm »

Quote from: The "Fifth" Entity on March 04, 2014, 12:31:23 pm

...
Quote from: Event "Janе" Horizon on February 28, 2014, 09:48:48 am
... it will take some time for the newly incorporated company to gain sufficient assets to contemplate allowing cash-outs.
There is several different ways how to "start off" the RCE. One example was posted even in this very thread (look at the Hultaan's idea about implementing additional, withdrawable currency). As opposed to the primitive "DL has to pay for everything that is ingame at this very moment, from their pocket, period".

The way I read Hultaan's idea is that AWD is no longer generated from Real Life money, while it continues to be spendable via terminals. Real Life money generates a replacement currency AWR which acts just like AWD except you can withdraw it.
I like this idea as it draws a line between the liabilities from donations and liabilities from 'investments'.

I am not sure if Anti has misunderstood the 'made from air' bit of Hultaan's idea.
The way I (eventually) read it to be, is the items currently made by the game ... all paid for by either decay or by terminal costs.

Zen "ZenX" Star · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2014, 11:47:27 pm »

Quote from: The "Fifth" Entity on March 04, 2014, 12:31:23 pm

Duh... why i have this déjà vu feeling again?

Deja vu, most certainly, lol.
I'll leave this with you Fifth, the previous conversations have been too draining, and history shows many people just don't "get it".
Hopefully it's different this time

, goodluck

Zen

The "Fifth" Entity · « **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2014, 12:39:50 pm »

Have to confess my main goal was to initiate some kind of discussion with the dev team to get a better idea about how they see RCE. You know, there's those basic concepts one inevitably has to understand to go anywhere... As the previous history has shown, being a game developer doesn't necessarily mean you can understand how RCE works. I'm pretty curious if this has changed now, because those who know answer to that question can predict the future...

When i read over my y-day's post, however, i realize i did a poor job there. Reminder to myself, don't write stuff while half asleep...

Oh well, suppose we have to believe they know how this stuff works, that they also have some ingenious new ideas in this area and hope for the best. Time will tell.

Event "Janе" Horizon · « **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:24:33 pm »

Anti is a game designer, and if you follow the link to his blog and research him, you can discover for yourself what he has been involved in.

I am not sure how many players here actually are Professional Game Designers that have been involved in RCE game design.
I suspect this may be a low number - like Zero.
I suspect DL LTD's number of Professional Game Designers that have been involved in RCE game design will be more than Zero.

My view: This is Dedicated Logic's game, that they want input from amateurs is great.
My view: DL have employed Professional game creators.
My view: It is that not standard practice to allow players to review design; nor make design decisions.
My view: DL appreciate our input (public posts and private messages).

Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton · « **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2014, 09:35:45 pm »

My views are similar to Jane's. DL has a team of people whose jobs are to make the best games they can and to make AWR the best possible game period. That doesn't automatically mean they know everything about how to make the best RCE possible, but it gives them much stronger incentive to research, develop, and refine the RCE goals that best match their vision for AWR. This is part of their job and they know that if they don't do their job right AWR will die and they'll have to find another job, which will be harder to do with a dead product that has their names on it.

My guess is that they ask for our ideas and suggestions to both engage us in the process and to have outside perspective. Where our ideas are a good match for their goals there's a possibility that they may be implemented to make AWR even better. But where our ideas clash or are otherwise incompatible with their plans, it's their prerogative to ignore them (though it'd be better if they commented to tell us which ideas won't work or won't be seriously considered). It's also in their best interest to prevent too many potential suggestions from overwhelming them and preventing further progress so they have to walk the fine line between What can we do that will make the game better? and What can we actually do that doesn't require more work than it's worth?

So our RCE ideas might all be great and what they'd like to do. But they can't do all of them (and probably not most of them) because they don't fit their internal plans and goals for AWR and/or because it would take them too long to implement for too little benefit.

Event "Janе" Horizon · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2014, 07:10:03 pm »

The more I think about Hultaan's idea, the more I like the way it might work.

How about this...

Implement Credit Notes (similar to the Obligatory Bills).
Credit Notes are the only way to get money into and out of the game.
Credit Notes can be converted to AWD via an NPC
AWD cannot be converted to Credit Notes by NPCs
Credit Notes can be traded, either player-to-player or via the Market Terminal.
Credit Notes can be cashed out (at a lower exchange rate than the deposit so that DL can profit from this action)

Credit Notes are the only way to get money out of the game, and these cannot be generated by players in the game. Player wanting to cash out will need to negotiate a price with players that have Credit Notes.

Dedicated Logic's player liabilities is limited to the number of unspent Credit Notes.

Players depositing money will have no AWD to start with, so these players will need to convert Credit Notes to AWD to play. As soon as they convert a Credit Note, the Credit Note is irreversibly consumed by the game.

Obviously, players with AWD generated prior to Credit Notes being implemented will feel disadvantaged. However, they just need to wait and negotiate harder.

Scammer protection: A rule could be implemented that player-to-player transactions must include items that have a value of at least 1 AWD per Credit note. For example, you could not trade 0.89 Credit Notes for 1g of Nitre; but you could trade 0.89 Credit Notes for 1g of Nitre PLUS a 0/100% Steel pick).

Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2014, 04:00:27 am »

I'm not really a fan of the idea of having an entirely separate system to account for and allow withdrawals, but it may be the best way to protect DL and allow us to withdraw some of the funds we've accumulated while playing.

As to having to buy Credit Notes from only players, I see a problem. Unless they come in standard amounts it would be hard to find the right-sized Credit Notes that match what someone wants to withdraw. Even being able to sell them on the Market may not be able to overcome the issue when non-standard withdraw amounts are coupled with player-derived sale prices. Unless, of course, DL wants to make withdrawal possible but not easy, in which case this is a pretty good solution.

Quote from: Anti "Ether" Danilevski on February 27, 2014, 07:51:24 am

About donations: donation always been a wrong word. honestly, you always been simply buying AWD. And it will be this way, because from the legal point of view, it's not a donations at all (and it may cause us a lot of troubles when it comes down to paying taxes from income).

I just realized that if the words 'donate' and 'donation' are wrong, there need to be some updates made to the forum links and the page that allows us to 'buy' AWD: https://my.afterworld.deelogic.net/survival/index.php?action=treasury.

Zen "ZenX" Star · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2014, 04:17:27 am »

I wouldn't worry too much about the semantics of Donate too much Jarrod, from a technical point of view they never were donations because goods or services were always received in exchange for the funds.

I imagine as Anti and the team continue the refurbishment of Afterworld all these minor inconsistencies with be dealt with.

I also think that it will be worth waiting to see which model Anti and the team will be using for RCE , as they clearly now have a model in mind .
Lets give them some space to make changes and show us what they've got

Zen

Event "Janе" Horizon · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2014, 08:09:53 am »

Quote from: Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton on March 10, 2014, 04:00:27 am

I'm not really a fan of the idea of having an entirely separate system to account for and allow withdrawals, but it may be the best way to protect DL and allow us to withdraw some of the funds we've accumulated while playing.

As to having to buy Credit Notes from only players, I see a problem. Unless they come in standard amounts it would be hard to find the right-sized Credit Notes that match what someone wants to withdraw. Even being able to sell them on the Market may not be able to overcome the issue when non-standard withdraw amounts are coupled with player-derived sale prices. Unless, of course, DL wants to make withdrawal possible but not easy, in which case this is a pretty good solution.

Quote from: Anti "Ether" Danilevski on February 27, 2014, 07:51:24 am
About donations: donation always been a wrong word. honestly, you always been simply buying AWD. And it will be this way, because from the legal point of view, it's not a donations at all (and it may cause us a lot of troubles when it comes down to paying taxes from income).
I just realized that if the words 'donate' and 'donation' are wrong, there need to be some updates made to the forum links and the page that allows us to 'buy' AWD: https://my.afterworld.deelogic.net/survival/index.php?action=treasury.

Sorry, I didn't actually say ... I was thinking of Credit Notes as being stack-able and split-able like AWD ... so only like Obligatory Bills in that they can be converted to AWD

Gebeleizis "Hultaan" Kapnobatai · « **Reply #24 on:** March 10, 2014, 10:16:54 am »

@ brickwit "Unless, of course, DL wants to make withdrawal possible but not easy, in which case this is a pretty good solution."

the game works and survives as long the money stay in game not when r withdrawal , so yes, I would slow down that process I would make it not harder but not easier , need to be well balanced and not allow greedy peoples take advantage of it, because some stay on position ready like wolfs, and is the only thing they see from RCE games.( ofc this is another topic )

Also, I thought about some dynamic economy feature, and I found a way to determine how some professions like mining can generate instant AWD ( based on the double currency ) and if is well balanced the miners could find some rare UG stuffs..example: stuffs that keep the retransmitter working, and only UG activity can provide the right mineral/metal and the WO who have this task can give in return AWD or idk something more than a p-note ,

hunting can have also similar stuffs that WO can use for who knows what, the important thing here is having 2 currency and controlling the loot ( from hunting crafting mining) the AWD will not create unbalanced economy, but can give a purpose for everyone to hope , and work out his profession he chose to be,

Also I have this blurry image regarding the lands and the owning system, but here can be wide open world, dynamic economy, new coins that works only in specific area ( when the full map will be available ) u can not buy and use AWD there u need what is in that region and I m saying this because I see no point of PvP8 here, supporting the idea of using curriers, why, cause is stupid to travel whit wallet full of stuffs while u pass thru a dangerous zone, no1 will do that, but if u need the coins In the place u want to go, u have to tae them whit u, or hire someone to do that for u....can be discussed and diversified...and the owners can also convert those new coins into AWR if they want , SAU, AWD or GHK whatever the coin is named, traded, sold via market, bought, kept, buried, whatever works for the owner

plenty possibilities but like Zen mentioned here "Lets give them some space to make changes and show us what they've got"

cheers

Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton · « **Reply #25 on:** March 10, 2014, 05:30:28 pm »

Quote from: Zen "ZenX" Star on March 10, 2014, 04:17:27 am

I wouldn't worry too much about the semantics of Donate too much Jarrod, from a technical point of view they never were donations because goods or services were always received in exchange for the funds.

I imagine as Anti and the team continue the refurbishment of Afterworld all these minor inconsistencies with be dealt with.

I also think that it will be worth waiting to see which model Anti and the team will be using for RCE , as they clearly now have a model in mind .
Lets give them some space to make changes and show us what they've got

Zen

Oh, I didn't mean to say that it's a priority to fix this. I just wanted to point it out in case they'd forgotten about it and I wonder if they have since it's a relatively simple matter of changing a few words on a web page that they have complete control over.

But I'm confident that they'll get to it one day too.

Quote from: Event "Janе" Horizon on March 10, 2014, 08:09:53 am

Sorry, I didn't actually say ... I was thinking of Credit Notes as being stack-able and split-able like AWD ... so only like Obligatory Bills in that they can be converted to AWD

Yep, that would certainly be as flexible as any player could want. The more I think about it (too), the more I see how it could be a small additional level of complexity for a much greater overall simplicity.

Quote from: Gebeleizis "Hultaan" Kapnobatai on March 10, 2014, 10:16:54 am

the game works and survives as long the money stay in game not when r withdrawal , so yes, I would slow down that process I would make it not harder but not easier , need to be well balanced and not allow greedy peoples take advantage of it, because some stay on position ready like wolfs, and is the only thing they see from RCE games.( ofc this is another topic )

This is something that I worry about too and why I agree that it shouldn't be as simple to withdraw as in EU. They've had to add in things like skill chips and waiting periods because they didn't create a robust enough withdrawal system in the first place.

Quote from: Gebeleizis "Hultaan" Kapnobatai on March 10, 2014, 10:16:54 am

Also, I thought about some dynamic economy feature, and I found a way to determine how some professions like mining can generate instant AWD ( based on the double currency ) and if is well balanced the miners could find some rare UG stuffs..example: stuffs that keep the retransmitter working, and only UG activity can provide the right mineral/metal and the WO who have this task can give in return AWD or idk something more than a p-note ,

hunting can have also similar stuffs that WO can use for who knows what, the important thing here is having 2 currency and controlling the loot ( from hunting crafting mining) the AWD will not create unbalanced economy, but can give a purpose for everyone to hope , and work out his profession he chose to be,

It would be pretty cool to have rare but not impossible finds in loot and mining claims that gives additional value. This community has suggested many forms of this and I like them all.

Quote from: Gebeleizis "Hultaan" Kapnobatai on March 10, 2014, 10:16:54 am

Also I have this blurry image regarding the lands and the owning system, but here can be wide open world, dynamic economy, new coins that works only in specific area ( when the full map will be available ) u can not buy and use AWD there u need what is in that region and I m saying this because I see no point of PvP8 here, supporting the idea of using curriers, why, cause is stupid to travel whit wallet full of stuffs while u pass thru a dangerous zone, no1 will do that, but if u need the coins In the place u want to go, u have to tae them whit u, or hire someone to do that for u....can be discussed and diversified...and the owners can also convert those new coins into AWR if they want , SAU, AWD or GHK whatever the coin is named, traded, sold via market, bought, kept, buried, whatever works for the owner

plenty possibilities but like Zen mentioned here "Lets give them some space to make changes and show us what they've got"

cheers

Good point about local currencies and high PLs. They've already told us that areas will be very different for crafting and resources so having local money would be a logical addition.

All things considered, I'm as excited as ever to see what they bring us! Sometimes it's hard to be patient and realize that (as I said in another post) it's in the devs' best interest to make this the best possible MMO and RCE and that they're taking their time to make sure they don't miss anything.

ali "alikim" kim · « **Reply #26 on:** May 28, 2014, 07:37:00 am »

This is my understanding of how you make an RCE game: above all, you implement RCE (deposits + withdrawal) right from the start, see how it goes and then adjust the game economy on the fly.

Before you start you have to have a clear idea how RCE will work to keep your business floating and allow the player base to have their income. And not just in general terms but with the precise numbers put on paper.

You have to have a business plan where all the economy elements like mobs, pnotes, skills, loot etc. wired into a financial plan that should generate certain profit and that you will have to adjust a thousand times as you go till it works because you cannot predict how people will like (hopefully) to spend their real money in your game. Plus hundreds of small things like how farming-proof your mechanics are and how you protect your economy from damage when real money is involved.

You also have to have a clear understanding of how your accounting will work because you will have to handle a lot of international transactions in and out and keep your fees low.

Where is all that?

All I see here is people trying to make your average donation/subscription MORPG that works on completely different principles and the more they work in that direction, the farther it is from RCE.

What's the point in severely re-balancing and re-designing the existing game economy without RCE in place?

All you are doing now will be forfeited when you introduce RCE, that is if you are actually planning to introduce it.

The value of loot, how strong / aggressive the mobs are, how "funny" / "annoying" some activities are etc. - all of this will be seen in at a completely different angle when the real $$ is involved.

You either build one game or another, you can't go in two different directions at the same time.

To me it is pretty clear that so far the developers are building a small MORPG and trying hard to make it work and make sense as an MORPG.

When they succeed they will have exactly that, a MORPG; it won't be possible just to slap RCE up on it or just to add some RCE elements to the game, they will have to start a new game from scratch, re-design / re-balance it again, remove elements that do not work with real cash, implement new etc.

Maybe the devs will do that in a very distant future but it's gonna be "another game", the game they are building now has no RCE future.

Event "Janе" Horizon · « **Reply #27 on:** May 28, 2014, 10:41:39 pm »

@alikim: Read https://my.afterworld.deelogic.net/survival/gameplay-discussions/announcements-and-comments/ for a summary of the intent of the changes.
You'll find the indications of the answers you are looking for.

Dedicated Logic seem to believe you can have fun and profit in a MORPG. That is what these changes are all aout.
And, of course, if there are players that simply want to have profit and not fun - that game play is in here too.

I assume your baseline for RCE is EU. Survival is not EU. There is no comparison available.

The "Fifth" Entity · « **Reply #28 on:** May 29, 2014, 06:52:57 am »

I believe using the good old Wikipedia definition of RCE (Real Cash Economy, a concept for video games, when both depositing & withdrawal of funds are made available) might help avoid confusion.

Afterworld (Alpha, Survival, Rebirth) has never been RCE.
Implementation of the RCE aspect is currently not included in any official plans or roadmaps.

It is not impossible that the RCE aspect might get more attention sometimes in the unforeseeable future.
It is also not impossible that the RCE aspect might be implemented in World of Warcraft sometimes in the unforeseeable future.

Short version. Forget it.

ali "alikim" kim · « **Reply #29 on:** May 29, 2014, 07:15:09 am »

Quote from: Event "Janе" Horizon on May 28, 2014, 10:41:39 pm

@alikim: Read https://my.afterworld.deelogic.net/survival/gameplay-discussions/announcements-and-comments/ for a summary of the intent of the changes.
You'll find the indications of the answers you are looking for.

I'm aware of those announcements and they are the reason I posted here based on indications I see in those announcements.

If you think you can marry "fun" based on one economy / game model with "profit" based on another, that's your right of course, I only express my personal opinion.

I wrote long enough topic to explain why it's not gonna happen.

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Author Topic: RCE discussion (Read 4416 times)

Event "Janе" Horizon

Re: RCE discussion

Zen "ZenX" Star

Re: RCE discussion

The "Fifth" Entity

Re: RCE discussion

Event "Janе" Horizon

Re: RCE discussion

Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton

Re: RCE discussion

Event "Janе" Horizon

Re: RCE discussion - Credit Notes

Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton

Re: RCE discussion

Zen "ZenX" Star

Re: RCE discussion

Event "Janе" Horizon

Re: RCE discussion

Gebeleizis "Hultaan" Kapnobatai

Re: RCE discussion

Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton

Re: RCE discussion

ali "alikim" kim

Re: RCE discussion

Event "Janе" Horizon

Re: RCE discussion

The "Fifth" Entity

Re: RCE discussion

ali "alikim" kim

Re: RCE discussion