Author Topic: A players perspective on Afterworlds development  (Read 3527 times)

Offline Windslow "Windslow" Warrior

  • Survival closed test group
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Irken Invader
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« on: August 28, 2013, 02:36:55 pm »
To put this patch into perspective for players, I'll highlight some points I have from personal experience in coding and business and how I've personally seen Afterworld develop.
  • When coding a game, you not only need to learn the coding language but adjust your mind's logic to the way it operates. So for the average computer user learning any form of code can be daunting and take years to master. Think of the changes you've seen from Alpha to Survival and realise those transfers were not simple cut and paste.
  • Dedicated Logic underwent a MASSIVE project in transferring Alpha into Survival. The changes that were required involved the team having to re-learn and adapt the different languages, engine logic and mathematical formula's and on top of this they were required to remove zoning which in a would have enabled them to keep coding at a far more simple level as it was zone restricted.
  • The team also had to upgrade the hardware to accommodate the size of the land and new resolutions resulting in larger file transfers on their server. Therefore they were required to also learn new technologies to implement these changes.
  • As with any business a cash flow is required and unfortunately we have seen how volatile the cash flow can be for DL. The business actually rely's on a financial model that asks you to pay for what you think the game is worth to you. As a bonus your given awdd to improve your gaming experience. This can be interpreted differently however that is the basic form of a donation. With this in my mind I see the community has a lot of opinions to share but are not willing to pay for the experience that Afterworld provides or for it's future.
  • As this is not a commercial game, people must understand anything here requires time. How much is dependent on the task at hand. In trying to isolate how long it has been since Afterworld last had work done on the code, I have found that I believe the work has never stopped, but rather slow down. This is quite simply due to the available hours to work on the project. At no point has Afterworld Survival closed down which in the face of a crisis shows exemplary Survival skills.
  • New registrations have closed therefore we have become a community whether we get along or not. To keep this community alive players really need to start to provide ways for others players to have some fun with. Alpha created a lot of divisions amongst players however Survival has taken us to the other end of the scale where we can work together to improve the game for eachother. This is actually the first time players have truly had a closed test in Survival. When Alpha was running and Survival was in test phase there was no point in testing when your time spent there was going to be lost. Therefore I feel like we're now part of Afterworld Survivals future success in a small way.
I could continue this list and may do so in the future but my point here is for players to understand things can't go back to the way they were, as all of this work would then have been a waste of time for Dedicated Logic. We may have seen the end altogether in trying to transition it back so thankfully Survival has survived. Accept what we have available to us for entertainment and help support Dedicated Logic and it's development of Afterworld by donating what you think of the entertainment value you receive whether it be good or bad, it's all entertainment in some degree.

There's other games to try make money off, this may be one in the future but right now Dedicated Logic need financial support for the development of Survival and until they get the business side of things sorted which we believe is in good hands, it's up to us as the community of Afterworld to contribute to it's future, even if it is small.

Feel free to disagree but I've simply highlighted the logic as it stands for me and hope this changes some negative opinions around.
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk West at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: DILLIGAF
  • Member of society: Irken Invaders
OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Pro SP1
CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 930 @ 2.80GHz
Motherboard: Gigabyte X58A-UD3R
Memory: 6.00 GB DDR3 10700/1333 Graphics: ATI Radeon HD 5770 1Gb GDDR5 Hard Disk: Western Digital Black 500GB 7200RPM Network: 7.2Mbps Wireless Broadband

Offline Zaelkaer "Allfather" Vampyre

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 03:17:13 pm »
I try to always have an open mind. Thanks for sharing Windslow, i do see it a little differently now (honestly). :-)
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk, Town at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: Abstract MindHunters
  • Member of society: Abstract Minds
Z.A.V.

Offline Zen "ZenX" Star

  • Survival closed test group
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2013, 02:16:16 am »
Hi Windslow,
                      I commend your post , it has a very good attitude.
I will say that a lot of what you have written is known to many players, the hardship and challenges that the Devs have had.
The problem , for at least some, is how the Devs have treated us, not how we have treated them.
A lot of the time they have treated us with contempt, the simple fact they cant communicate shows a lack of respect.
But there have been many other things in the past where the Devs attitude has been lacking.
 
We have supported the Devs through a great deal over a long period of time, and for many of us with substantial amounts of money.
You get treated poorly for long enough and love dies mate, and this also translates through to relationships like game developer and game player/supporter.
 
The Devs want to show us they appreciate us and respect us, then they must start to show it, simple.
 
Zen
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk, Town
  • Member of corporation: Gencorp
  • Member of society: Genesis
Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit (6.1, Build 7601) Service Pack 1 (7601.win7sp1_gdr.120330-1504)
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz (8 CPUs), ~3.4GHz
8192MB RAM
DirectX 11 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560

Offline Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton

  • Survival closed test group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
  • AfterWiki admin & Computer Engineer
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 03:54:44 am »
I agree with both Windslow points. It's good to remember how much work it takes to 1) make a game that is unique enough to be interesting while being similar enough to other games that it's not completely foreign, and 2) to then translate all of that work - both the "simple" and the much more complex, custom coding - into what is essentially AfterWorld 2.0 but without making us all start from scratch again. It's saddening to see that they've had to cut back on what work they can do, but that leads us right to Zen's points.

I also agree with Zen's post and feel that if they had taken greater interest and put more effort into keep this community informed, they would not be in the situation they are today. Personally I wouldn't call it "contempt," but the devs have certainly shot themselves in the foot by not taking the time to keep us even minimally informed about what was going on. And unfortunately I'm starting to see Evangelist fall into the same pattern as each of the previous front-line AW Team members. It happened with AW News Bot, it happened with KORI, it happened with Fantazmo, and it happened with others as well - the communication starts off strong and frequent but quickly slows to a trickle of less information less often before becoming almost completely silent within about a month. When there are dozens of players clamoring for frequent communication - ANY communication - there are probably hundreds of players letting the others speak for them. When that communication dies out so does the trust and confidence of a lot of those players.
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk West at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: Consolidators
  • Member of society: Shadow Corpse
Proud Officer in Shadow Corpse society and Consolidators corporation.

Offline Event "Janе" Horizon

  • Survival closed test group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
  • Humble makes pie. Don't make pie, be AWESOME.
    • View Profile
    • Jane's AfterWorld Secrets
  • Gender: Female [Female]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2013, 05:30:03 am »

My perspective on Afterworlds development

I believe Survival (and Alpha) development was done as a labor of love.
Developers go to work, get married, have children then squeeze in advancing their game by burning the midnight oil, ignoring the pleas for their time from their loved ones.

When they set goals and reveal them to the players, players harass them when these deadlines cannot be met. As a result, Dedicated Logic put in a policy of not share these details with players (many years ago, there was a post by Banks to this effect).


When Dedicated Logic post something, players demand answers. Hounding the forum with taunts and treats. As a result, Dedicated Logic have learnt that silence is so much more productive for them. It is not as if they have not been watching and reading. It is that they have learn what makes their unpaid work less troublesome.

Survival was started at months and months before it was revealed to us. A burnout of enthusiasm was enviable Dedicated Logic realized that they could not sustain both Alpha and Survival. The dread they must have felt when they realized they must release Survival unfinished and lacking in so many needed features.

The despair Dedicated Logic must have undergone as team members (comrades) fell away from the development one by one under the pressure to produce working solutions unpaid and unappreciated by players.
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in New Urengoy [Q] at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: Savonation
  • Member of society: Savonites
NEVER DOUBT yourself. YOU ARE intelligent, forgiving and AWESOME.

Jane's AfterWorld Secrets
http://jaws.altervista.org/index.html

Offline Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton

  • Survival closed test group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
  • AfterWiki admin & Computer Engineer
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2013, 05:57:59 am »
Anyone that says there wasn't any hounding, demanding, bitching, and moaning about the game's progress in the past is either lying or is completely ignorant of the past. However all they needed to do was feed us the tiniest bread crumbs of hints and suggestions to keep everyone coming back. There's no question that saying "we plan to do x by y" date was and still is out of the question because of the very nature of programming. But even the occasional "We're still working on things as best we can, please be patient" would have gone a long way in preventing people from believing that the game had already died. Once that rumor starts floating around it's hard to put back in the bottle without extra communication effort by the devs. They didn't put forth the effort though so the rumors grew into feelings, which grew into some people getting to "I'm sure it's dead now" well before the crisis post.
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk West at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: Consolidators
  • Member of society: Shadow Corpse
Proud Officer in Shadow Corpse society and Consolidators corporation.

Offline Zen "ZenX" Star

  • Survival closed test group
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2013, 06:57:14 am »
If anyone suggests that Afterworld has been a fully unpaid labor of love then I think many people would like their money back.
There has been substantial amounts of money provided, and I can assure anyone that the costs of servers would not have absorbed a great deal of it.
Revenue has been received, and it has been consumed, lets not make this a fairy story.
 
I have no problem with Devs receiving monies, but showing appreciation for it is necessary if they don't want to create ill will, or poor relationships.
We all do things tough to some degree, some more than others, but we can all treat each well and with respect.
That doesn't mean pandering to every single request, but it does require commitment to the relationship.
And the problems haven't all been communication based, some have been responding to problems, or not.
 
I would also suggest that all languages would know the saying of  'Don't bite that hand that feeds you".
 
Anyway, Windslows post is good, and shows a good attitude, I just think we need to keep the balance of reality and history in mind, because that's how we stop ourselves from making the same mistakes.
 
Zen
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk, Town
  • Member of corporation: Gencorp
  • Member of society: Genesis
Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit (6.1, Build 7601) Service Pack 1 (7601.win7sp1_gdr.120330-1504)
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz (8 CPUs), ~3.4GHz
8192MB RAM
DirectX 11 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560

Offline The "Fifth" Entity

  • Survival closed test group
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 425
    • View Profile
    • 5entity.blogspot.com
  • Gender: Female [Female]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2013, 07:35:29 am »
Windslow, i agree with your conclusions in general, and it also gives a general idea about the nature of problems.



At the same time there's always a risk to get carried away and start thinking we know everything. Truth is, there's many players here who know something about client-server systems, networks, databases, programming, but none of us is an expert in game design and specifics of engines. This includes me, you, as far as i can tell even Zen and dalewj!!!  :o


Har har... er, um, sry. ;D


Well yea but seriously, each of us knows something, from a little different angles and as a group we collectively might even add up enough knowledge to get a rough idea... but that's it. As soon as we try to go into all these ever important tiny details without any inside information we run the risk of making factual mistakes.
Althou, i admit, it's so damn tempting to try go there sometimes.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 07:40:57 am by The "Fifth" Entity »
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk, Town at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: Alpha Unlimited
  • Member of society: Alpha

Offline Leo "Tesla Coil" Raateland

  • Survival closed test group
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
  • Of what we are capable - Anonymous
    • View Profile
    • Project Ion
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2013, 08:15:07 am »
Windslow, i agree with your conclusions in general, and it also gives a general idea about the nature of problems.



At the same time there's always a risk to get carried away and start thinking we know everything. Truth is, there's many players here who know something about client-server systems, networks, databases, programming, but none of us is an expert in game design and specifics of engines. This includes me, you, as far as i can tell even Zen and dalewj!!!  :o


Har har... er, um, sry. ;D


Well yea but seriously, each of us knows something, from a little different angles and as a group we collectively might even add up enough knowledge to get a rough idea... but that's it. As soon as we try to go into all these ever important tiny details without any inside information we run the risk of making factual mistakes.
Althou, i admit, it's so damn tempting to try go there sometimes.  ;)

 ;) happy i am not on your list  :P
But for real, they made a mess of it all! period!

Hoping on better times for them...
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in New Urengoy [Q] at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: The Chosen Few
  • Member of society: Holland Nu
Download Project Ion : http://project-ion.testbuilt.org/
Project Ion forum : http://forum.testbuilt.org/

Offline Leo "Tesla Coil" Raateland

  • Survival closed test group
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
  • Of what we are capable - Anonymous
    • View Profile
    • Project Ion
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2013, 08:45:26 am »
Took this post from the facebook page from Afterworld. https://www.facebook.com/AWSurvival
A new player who can not invite his friends...  ::)

At least JBK took the time to repsond right away...

Scott Broadbent I'm desperately looking for someone who is an active member in this game, or someone on the actual operations side. I have idea's that may help, i'm more than willing to deposit on a regular basis to help the game in this way, i've also done beta testing from the users side and submitted reports on issues found so i'm quite happy to help in this manner as well, also i've already talked to some friends in real life and some from other mmo's and they are willing to come, and try it and are open to depositing and if they enjoy it, staying, so 2 things, 1, can someone please contact me, even if you just play the game, I don't even have access to the forums, and would like to talk to someone seriously about the game, and 2, turn on the registrations again if anyone from the operational side of AW reads this, right now from what I can tell, you're strangling yourself, old players can get bored and leave, but with a closed game, new players can't come in and fill those spots, especially players who are willing to deposit like myself. I would like to see this game actually have a fair chance, so please, someone, anyone, contact me, and turn on registration! please, cause nobody can join at the moment. please and thank you
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in New Urengoy [Q] at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: The Chosen Few
  • Member of society: Holland Nu
Download Project Ion : http://project-ion.testbuilt.org/
Project Ion forum : http://forum.testbuilt.org/

Offline Event "Janе" Horizon

  • Survival closed test group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
  • Humble makes pie. Don't make pie, be AWESOME.
    • View Profile
    • Jane's AfterWorld Secrets
  • Gender: Female [Female]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 09:50:38 am »
Bit of shame there is not a huge disclaimer on the facebook page that it is just a fansite.
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in New Urengoy [Q] at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: Savonation
  • Member of society: Savonites
NEVER DOUBT yourself. YOU ARE intelligent, forgiving and AWESOME.

Jane's AfterWorld Secrets
http://jaws.altervista.org/index.html

Offline Alcante "Vitrun" Residus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2013, 11:55:59 am »
Facebook Who?  :o there's no page about AfterWorld on Wikipedia even
in all these years..  :P Reason? - previous was deleted due to small amount
of sources refering to it, according to Wiki mods. There was hidden page about
AW, but can't find it anymore, so suppose it was marked for deletion, i.e., extinct.
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in New Urengoy [Q] at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: Auksinas Ltd.
  • Member of society: N A P

Offline Leo "Tesla Coil" Raateland

  • Survival closed test group
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
  • Of what we are capable - Anonymous
    • View Profile
    • Project Ion
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2013, 02:04:51 pm »
Bit of shame there is not a huge disclaimer on the facebook page that it is just a fansite.

Here the same btw, also a plee in the first message to speak with the developers.

https://www.facebook.com/AfterWorld.ru?fref=ts

Having a IRC or Skype channel would be no bad move i think for the developers if they really looking for investors, also see some people donated in last week.
Think that it is directly related to the updates done.
When people see action they put also stuff into action.

First steps are done, keep it up!
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in New Urengoy [Q] at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: The Chosen Few
  • Member of society: Holland Nu
Download Project Ion : http://project-ion.testbuilt.org/
Project Ion forum : http://forum.testbuilt.org/

Offline Windslow "Windslow" Warrior

  • Survival closed test group
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Irken Invader
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 06:56:01 pm »
Just like to say thanks for not turning this into a negative topic.

I have not seen one invalid point made and everyone is on the right track for constructive criticism.

Need I say more other than I'm much happier now than even before the crisis post.  8)

Regards,
Windslow
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk West at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: DILLIGAF
  • Member of society: Irken Invaders
OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Pro SP1
CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 930 @ 2.80GHz
Motherboard: Gigabyte X58A-UD3R
Memory: 6.00 GB DDR3 10700/1333 Graphics: ATI Radeon HD 5770 1Gb GDDR5 Hard Disk: Western Digital Black 500GB 7200RPM Network: 7.2Mbps Wireless Broadband

Offline Zaelkaer "Allfather" Vampyre

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
    • View Profile
  • Gender: Male [Male]
  • In game: No
  • State: Human
Re: A players perspective on Afterworlds development
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2013, 12:25:21 am »
On the one hand for that guy and maybe his friends who want to join and play, for them its super unfortunate and they must be frustrated at the devs for closing registration, but on the other hand, now they + others will probably be waiting eagerly for registration to be open to the public once more
  • Citizenship: Regular citizen
  • Last seen in Saransk, Town at Outpost / Storages
  • Member of corporation: Abstract MindHunters
  • Member of society: Abstract Minds
Z.A.V.