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Author Topic: Update: 10th September  (Read 13565 times)

Offline Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2014, 03:16:54 am »
@Bertram, sorry for not being as clear as I'd intended, but my point is the same as Jane's last point; namely that all current PNs will be converted from the old 1 PN per 500kg turned in to a WO to 100 PNs per 500kg turned in to a WO. This is, obviously, assuming that WOs will give 100 PNs per 500kg turned in after the update but unless the devs decide to change the intrinsic value of turning in 500kg to a WO, there's no reason we won't get 100 PNs afterwards.

@Wavy, I finally understand the problem people are having with the SAU -> PN conversion of 1 SAU = 1 PN when compared to the conversion of 1 (current) PN = 100 (new) PNs. The current cost to unblock Stage 1 of any skill is 3600 SAU, which, at 0.5 AWD per 1000 or 0.0005 AWD each, equates to 1.8 AWD. But after the update we'll only be able to use PNs, which have a current value of 5 AWD each, but will be multiplied by 100 with the update, which equates to 0.05 AWD each or 50 AWD per 1000 and 180 AWD for 3600. However, what is being forgotten is that the price of PNs is 100% player-determined. So the player-derived value of the PN after the update will be adjusted to what makes sense under the new rules.

What we know at this point is that PNs will be used for all of their current uses, plus skill stage unblocking. Those uses, assuming there are no unannounced change, are:
  • Buying Citizenship
  • Obtaining Courier licenses (assuming this won't change when they're reintroduced)
  • Performing Compound Research
  • Buying Clones
  • Moving pets between Stables (assuming this won't change when they're reintroduced)
  • Unblocking skill stages
If we assume that buying Citizenship and Courier licenses - which used to cost 100 PNs each - won't cost any more or any less, we can assume that the new requirements will be 100 times as many PNs, or 10,000 PNs. The other actions will likely use the same number of PNs as what used to be required in PMNs, e.g. between 9 and 23 PNs to buy a clone, depending on location and timing. With all of these functions for one item the per-item value, i.e. 1 new PN, will be lower than current pricing because of its versatility and availability compared to now. It may take a little while, but ultimately the cost of a PN will soon be close to the current cost of a single SAU.

What we don't know is what else they'll be used for, either right after the update or later on. As more uses are added the value will adjust based on supply, demand, and estimated cost to generate them and could fluctuate widely from time to time. We also don't know when we'll have new methods of creating them, but it appears that it won't be soon, so PN generation shouldn't affect the value for a while.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 08:18:47 pm by Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton »
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Offline Bold "Bertram" Blanshard

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2014, 06:24:53 am »
Quote from: Event "Janе" Horizon on September 02, 2014, 12:39:21 am
My point was that if you have 1 PNote now, you will have 100 new PNotes after the update.
 
 Let's say that you got 1 PNote by picking and that the pick decay cost you 0.5 AWD hence the 1 PNote cost you 0.5 AWD.
 After the update, you now have 100 new PNotes ... these were still generated via the above picking - so these would still have a total intrinsic value of 0.5 AWD.
 
 Lets say you also have 3600 SAU before the update, these will become 3600 PNotes after the udpate.
 Before the update you could use the 3600 SAU to unblock level 1, after the update you can use the 3600 PNotes to unblock level 1.
 
 So players will not have lost any 'value' during update; the type and quantity of the things being valued will change rather than the total value.
 
Jane, you are overlooking that the new PNotes converted from old PNotes, and the new PNotes converted from SAU will be identical, and have the same value. They do not inherit an intrinsic value carried forward.
Quote from: Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton on September 02, 2014, 03:16:54 am
@Bertram, sorry for not being as clear as I'd intended, but my point is the same as Jane's last point; namely that all current PNs will be converted from the old 1 PN per 500kg turned into a WO to 100 PNs per 500kg turned into a WO. This is, obviously, assuming that WOs will give 100 PNs per 500kg turned in after the update but unless the devs decide to change the intrinsic value of turning in 500kg to a WO, there's no reason we won't get 100 PNs afterwards.
Why should anyone spend 0.7 AWD on a pick and then exchange the stones for new PNotes worth 0.05 AWD?
You say you now understand Wavy's point, but then agree with Jane, who doesn't.
My post at #44 is still accurate.

I would be content to know my 100 PNotes would still be worth 500AWD after conversion, but that implies unblocking will cost 100 times more in AWD. Is that what you want (or expect)? Wherever the price settles, there is a false market now in the price of PNotes or SAU, or both, by a factor of 100. This should not have been allowed to happen. Unless the conversion is changed there are going to be a lot of unhappy players, including recently joined players like me who have spent a lot of time to accumulate PNotes which are a large proportion of their assets.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 08:03:54 am by Bold "Bertram" Blanshard »
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Offline Anti "Ether" Danilevski

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #77 on: September 02, 2014, 08:02:42 am »
Listen to Jane, she is absolutely correct. Thanks again, Jane!
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Offline Bold "Bertram" Blanshard

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #78 on: September 02, 2014, 08:24:56 am »
Quote from: Anti "Ether" Danilevski on September 02, 2014, 08:02:42 am
Listen to Jane, she is absolutely correct. Thanks again, Jane!
#68 is fine. If  #73 is correct, please explain how my 100 PNotes will maintain their intrinsic value after conversion. Are the new PNotes they will be converted to to be distinguished from the new Pnotes obtained from SAU or loot? Since you have already said not, you have refuted #73 yourself.
Our conclusions are derived logically from your announcements.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 08:50:40 am by Bold "Bertram" Blanshard »
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Offline Event "Janе" Horizon

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #79 on: September 02, 2014, 10:21:27 am »
Quote from: Bold "Bertram" Blanshard on September 02, 2014, 08:24:56 am
Quote from: Anti "Ether" Danilevski on September 02, 2014, 08:02:42 am
Listen to Jane, she is absolutely correct. Thanks again, Jane!
#68 is fine. If  #73 is correct, please explain how my 100 PNotes will maintain their intrinsic value after conversion. Are the new PNotes they will be converted to to be distinguished from the new Pnotes obtained from SAU or loot? Since you have already said not, you have refuted #73 yourself.
Our conclusions are derived logically from your announcements.
I am really sorry Bertram but my posts #68 and #73 are mostly the same, just phrased differently.
The new Pnotes will look exactly like the old Pnotes ... you will have 100 x more of them and the in-game prices (i.e. terminal / NPC) will be 100 x more to compensate.
Result = what you could do before costs exactly the same.

In my little head, nothing has really changed in value  as far as what we already have in our inventory (SAU, PNotes).
What will change is the cost of gaining any new PNotes after the update.
Until players work that out - PNote value will be volatile as players try to play-the-system ... it happened in AWA with stone prices where a group of players pushed the sell price to 12AWD per 500kg for a while (crazy but true)!
 
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Offline Anti "Ether" Danilevski

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #80 on: September 02, 2014, 10:35:43 am »
Quote from: Event "Janе" Horizon on September 02, 2014, 10:21:27 am
The new Pnotes will look exactly like the old Pnotes ... you will have 100 x more of them and the in-game prices (i.e. terminal / NPC) will be 100 x more to compensate.
Result = what you could do before costs exactly the same.


Right. It's called "denomination".
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Offline Event "Janе" Horizon

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #81 on: September 02, 2014, 06:59:34 pm »
Players, I also feel that I should point out that there is a big different between the cost of pursuing a particular stone via steel pick v.s. the cost of pursing PNotes via steel pick..

If you are after a particular stone e.g. for iron - the cost to the player in pick decay is 2.79 AWD per 500kg (see https://my.afterworld.deelogic.net/survival/knowledge-database/stone-costs/).
Different stones have different costs.

If you are after lots of PNotes - the cost to the player in pick decay is about 1.30 AWD per Pnote (see https://my.afterworld.deelogic.net/survival/newcomers-corner/cost-of-citizenship-via-p-notes/msg10815/#msg10815).

If you have doubts over the validity of the results, please post in the above threads so this can be discussed.
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Offline Sifalio "Sifis" Kritikakis

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2014, 08:06:34 pm »
Hello all,


Thank you for all for the information discussed :)


What worries me is not the P-Notes and the conversion.
I am more concerned with the millions of SAU existing in the game and that conversion to P-Notes!
What will happen to that?
It will be shocking if some old players that have gathered from globals millions of sau to get a huge ammount of awd...


please correct me if i am not right :)


Thank you!
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Offline Anti "Ether" Danilevski

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2014, 08:19:14 pm »
Quote from: Sifalio "Sifis" Kritikakis on September 02, 2014, 08:06:34 pm
It will be shocking if some old players that have gathered from globals millions of sau to get a huge ammount of awd...


How exactly are they going to convert pnotes to AWD?
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Offline Wavy "Wavy" Warrior

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2014, 08:22:12 pm »
I guess we are going in circles and understand both view points.


For people holding P-Notes there would be big fluctuation but it seems by design and after that market forces will take over.


Just wanted to make sure (hence the initial post) so that we can make informed choice.
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Offline Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2014, 09:07:07 pm »
I was going to ask how people with lots of SAU were going to end up with lots of AWD later too, but it seems that there is still confusion about what will happen to the value of PNs after the update. And honestly, I'm wondering too because there seems to be an order of magnitude difference in the SAU -> PN and now PN -> later PN conversions. It seems like converting SAU to PNs in a 1:1 ratio means that current PNs should be converted to "new" PNs in a 1:1000 ratio rather than 1:100, as I described above, and that PMNs should be converted in a 1:10 ratio rather than 1:1.

Quote from: Bold "Bertram" Blanshard on September 02, 2014, 06:24:53 am
Quote from: Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton on September 02, 2014, 03:16:54 am
@Bertram, sorry for not being as clear as I'd intended, but my point is the same as Jane's last point; namely that all current PNs will be converted from the old 1 PN per 500kg turned into a WO to 100 PNs per 500kg turned into a WO. This is, obviously, assuming that WOs will give 100 PNs per 500kg turned in after the update but unless the devs decide to change the intrinsic value of turning in 500kg to a WO, there's no reason we won't get 100 PNs afterwards.
Why should anyone spend 0.7 AWD on a pick and then exchange the stones for new PNotes worth 0.05 AWD?
You say you now understand Wavy's point, but then agree with Jane, who doesn't.
I said that I agreed that we would be getting 100 PNs after the update for every 1 PN we have before it, which isn't talking about values, just quantities. I then realized that there seems to be a discrepancy in the conversion ratios that doesn't match with current SAU and PN values, which doesn't necessarily mean that a mistake was made, but I sure hope Anti agrees that the conversion rate should be multiplied by another 10!

If Jane's calculations are correct and the average cost to get a PN from picking rocks is about 1.3 AWD (which seems reasonable), it means that 100 PNs from picking will be worth 1.3 AWD and 1 PN will be worth 0.013 AWD via the WOs. However, players have worked out a value for SAU at 0.5 AWD per 1,000 SAU, which means that 1,000 PNs will be worth 0.5 AWD from whatever other activities will generate them and 1 PN will be worth 0.0005 AWD each via those methods. Currently it's much easier to gain SAU than it is to gain PNs, and during the process of gaining PNs by picking rocks, we also get SAU. To me this seems like even more reason to get a 10-fold increase from our current PNs and PMNs.
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Offline Richard "Snakeeyes11" Walsh

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2014, 09:18:52 pm »
What is clouding everyone's judgment is the current in game price that has been placed on p notes which is 5awd. Currently sau trades at 0.6 to 0.8 per 1000.


Currently 1 p note can be traded for a maximum of 97 micro notes. Therefore 1 p note becoming 100 p notes is consistant. As p notes will be used to unlock skills instead of sau then 1 sau to 1 p note is also consistant.


The only "losers" in this scenario are ones hoping for a 5awd price per 100 p notes in the new system.


There's an easy enough solution for this (which isn't the game designers changing the proposed conversion rates)
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Offline Event "Janе" Horizon

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2014, 09:57:00 pm »
I agree with Snakeeyes11, there is a great difference between the players wanting to sell PNotes at 5AWD and the actual cost of collecting PNotes (1.3AWD).
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Offline Jarod "Brickwit" McBrickerton

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2014, 12:26:26 am »
He pretty much TL;DR'd my post in a nutshell, hehe.
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Offline Windslow "Windslow" Warrior

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Re: Update: 10th September
« Reply #89 on: September 03, 2014, 05:58:18 am »
Quote from: Anti "Ether" Danilevski on September 01, 2014, 07:37:39 pm
We are going to watch and analyze new economy system and if something would work not as planned, it will be fixed. But for now, exchange rate will remain as designed. You really don't know how many pnotes you can earn per day to worry about it now.


Also, we can set any exchange rate that we find is correct, be it AWD -> pnote/ 1 AWD = 100 pnotes or 1 AWD = 1m pnotes.

With all the math's equations thrown around I was surprised that no one has included an estimated potential earning of new p-note's per day to include into the results showing what could potentially happen after a certain amount of time.

The theoretical side of the new conversions does seem to indicate it is nearly the same as current system, which has been shown in previous posts, however keeping track of how quickly players can collect p-notes must surely influence the conversion prices to set and for future economic changes.

Just off picking rocks it takes around 5 hours a day for 7 days to collect 100pnotes... Anyone wanna fill in the blanks with some guesses?

I have to say though the server side work combined with this economic re-balance shows that the development of Afterworld is back underway, even more exciting changes can be anticipated and although I'm concerned about the newer MMO's being released in the near future affecting potential game population, hopefully AW can continue to stand out in a league of it's own. 

Congrats to Dedicated Logic on their achievements and looking forward to seeing the update implemented.

 
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